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Well, interesting. In business school, they teach you how to be a highly um effective and I would say productive individual and manager. And so what is the shortest way to accomplish you know a certain result and um almost never I think in my upbringing and can I say in my education I don't you know at at that time this was probably 30 years ago we didn't have a class on how to behave or on ethics you know I think now some edos it happened sometimes they feel like bolt on onto a program but um all the emphasis is about maximization of outcomes economic outcomes and not societal, personal, relationship outcomes.

Those are not factored in at all. And so, um, and so we had to learn on the spot, you know, and how to apply principles of ESC in everyday life because I have not been part of courses where you've been taught that, you know, and so we had to experiment as we went and uh, put our heart into it and uh, and figure out how to do that, you know.