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When I work with some of my clients, um, one one important dimension is for them to understand that what they need to know in order to manage their business is somewhere else and it is usually at the ground level. You know, that's where the knowledge is. I mean, if you go into into a plant, uh, who knows what's going on? It's not it's not even the supervisor. It's certainly not the director or the vice president. It's the the people that are down, you know, in the trenches working things out, right?

But you won't know that if you go there with all your knowledge, with everything you need to know. So you've got to be empty to receive the knowledge that those people are willing to give you. And that's also a key in labor relation. That's where you bridge the gap between management and the workers. Okay? So being able to give room, it's subsidiarity in in terms of of the social teachings of the church, right? But it's a it's going to get the knowledge where it is. And to do that, you need to give space inside of you for it to happen.